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I'm curious what, if anything, you all think that the IndieWeb as a community could do or do better to make things easier for Generation 2 users?

Additionally is there something we all (as Gen2 users) could band together to do to make it easier for others like us not to have to "suffer" as we did? Comments back to this are welcome, as is conversation in the channel, or even brainstorming on the wiki (perhaps the generations page: https://indieweb.org/generations#Generation_2_IndieWeb)

 

I think a lot of the problem comes down to all of the siloed walls out there which are causing most of the friction. We're still relatively early days yet and only a tiny few are using the concept of salmention which would help keep running threads working properly. Admittedly having the context live somewhere and then having proper threaded communications isn't easy, so many do what they're able to for the moment.

I'm usually attempting to manually accomplish salmention as best as I'm able, but I may not hit every syndicated target unless you're displaying it directly. Additionally some targets just don't make sense--I'll webmention your original, for example, but this lengthy reply just won't look right at micro.blog if you syndicated a simple headline and URL there, so why bother since you'll see it at the original anyway? Others who are on micro.blog may miss out on part of the conversation, but presumably if they're looking at your copy on micro.blog, they'll be able to see the original as it was intended.

Colin, you mention that not all of your content needs to go to micro.blog. Perhaps, but to think so in my mind is part of the older silo way of thinking. The only reason you're syndicating there is as a stopgap to reach the people who don't currently have the time or luxury to be doing things the way you are. Otherwise they could subscribe to you directly at the source (and potentially even circumscribe the types of posts, keywords, or content to get exactly what they want from your site.) In some sense you syndicate there to reach and communicate with the non-IndieWeb crowd. Perhaps some of your content doesn't make as much sense there as Micro.blog is limited in what it is able to do, but that is its limitation, not yours. Eventually in a fully IndieWeb-ified world, everyone would have their own domain, their own data, and syndication of any sort won't have a real need to exist at all.

As to Jack's comment, syndicating things out to multiple places is often difficult as is getting all the responses back. (Fortunately services like Brid.gy make things far easier though they don't cover all the bases.) I do it in large part because while I prefer to own all of my content and have all the conversation take place on my personal site, I can't necessarily make that choice for everyone else. My mom is likely to never have her own domain much less a site. The only way she'll see my content (whether it's meant for her or not) is to syndicate it to Facebook. For those who aren't yet aware of the IndieWeb or using it, they're still reading and interacting on other platforms, which, for me is fine since I can still have my cake and eat it too. Eventually there will be inexpensive platforms that will let people who don't want to deal with the development cost and overhead that allow much of the IndieWeb-types of functionalities they're not currently getting from their silo platforms for free. I suspect that these will be easier and easier (as well as cheaper) to use over time. I suspect more people will use them for their freedom, flexibility, and increased control. Until then, I have the privilege of using my site much the way I would Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Google+, Flickr, GoodReads, etc., etc., I just get to do it through a more unified experience instead of having to juggle dozens of accounts and only being able to interact with my fractions of friends, family, and colleagues who coincidentally happen to be spending the time and effort to interact on those websites. As an example, I have dozens of friends who interact with me on Facebook about things I'm currently reading or finished reading, but if I was only doing this on GoodReads, they'd never have a chance to see it as they don't have accounts there or even know it exists. (Coincidentally, this is also the reason that GoodReads and most other silos allow one to syndicate their accounts to Twitter, Facebook, etc.)

Not all social sites are as lucky as Facebook to have such massive adoption. This creates a value imbalance with respect to the classic "network effect" (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect). Philosophically I think that an decentralized and distributed version of IndieWeb philosophies add far more value than having hundreds or even thousands of individual silos.

Invariably some people are likely to stick with Twitter, Facebook, or others because they don't have the same values I do. (Currently I suspect the majority do it because it's frictionless and easy.) But this doesn't change the fact that one can't have a "universal" conversation if one prefers. When I look at various platforms, some of them have different personalities and types of conversations because of the (possibly) self-selecting group of people on them. I loved Twitter more in the early days because of it's smaller and more engaged community--things have naturally changed drastically since those early days. Micro.blog is a bit more like it now, but to me it's not so much a social media replacement for Twitter. To me it's really a social reader that I use to quickly follow a subset of interesting and thoughtful people until I have a better social reader built into my own site. The conversation would be somewhat different if these silos were working on niche audience content like knitting or quantum mechanics, but typically they're not. Most social silos are geared toward mass adoption and broad topic discussion or content posting for everyone/everywhere. Their goal is for their site to be the proverbial "phone number and dial-tone of the web". Why do this when I already have a connection and a "phone number" that is my own site URL?

Jack, while some bloggers have turned off comments, they've often done so saying "Post your reply on your own site, or on Twitter, Facebook, etc." This has just pushed the conversation on their ideas off somewhere else which is disconnected and not as easily searchable or discoverable. And without some kind of notification mechanism, the author of the original post has no idea it exists. (I'll elide a conversation about blocking trolls and abuse here.) I've written some thoughts on comments sections in reply to such a blogger who recently re-enabled comments which also links to several interesting articles about the pros/cons of having comments at all. To me, between webmentions, spam filtering, and even moderation, we're lightyears ahead of where we were in the early 2000s.

One other thing I do find interesting is that the way all of this is set up is allowing us the ability to write extended thoughts and extended multiple replies (with civility as relative strangers). I don't think there are many sites on the web that allow this type of interaction, and they certainly don't do it with anything remotely close to the open architecture we're using. While at times it can be a headache for maintenance and problems, I find far more value in it than using anything else.

 

@jensimmons The best content-type-focused CMS set ups I've seen with the broadest array of out-of-the-box supported types are @WithKnown (+plugins http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/plugins/community/) and @WordPress with the Post Kinds plugin http://indieweb.org/static-site

 

@nlafferty I am still actively using @withknown, both personally and professionally. The private communities I set up are still actively being used by many in the group long after the original course was over. A few have set up their own individual sites and migrated their content out as well.

Another option that may be interesting is setting up a community space that people can be a part of natively or which they can have their own individual sites and syndicate their content to it as necessary or desirable.

If you'd like to chat about it I'm happy to do so via phone/internet/other. I suspect you might find some value in conversing with the folks at Known directly as well.

 

Virtual Homebrew Website Club Meetup | July 12, 2017

Join some like-minded people in building and updating your personal website.

Location: Online: Google Hangouts (link TBA)

Time:

Ends:

•Work on your IndieWeb Resolutions for 2017
•Finish that blog post you’ve been working on
•Demos of recent IndieWeb breakthroughs
•Share what you’ve gotten working
•Ask the experts questions

Join a community with like-minded interests. Bring friends that want a personal site.

Any questions? Ask in chat: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today#bottom

Google Hangout: https://hangouts.google.com/hangouts/_/nu3zwcimzbhxrmlxv343yq2zsme

Optional quiet writing hour starts at 16:30 (Pacific)

Add your RSVP in the comments below, by adding your indie RSVP via webmention to this post, or by RSVPing yes to one of the posts below:
Indieweb.org event: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-07-12-homebrew-website-club#Virtual_Americas
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/events/237991833381531

The IndieWeb is a growing people-focused alternative to the ‘corporate web’.

Skill levels: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced
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IndieWebifying my website: part 1, the why & how | AltPlatform

AltPlatform blogger Richard MacManus details how he's modifying his website to join the independent web. I'm tickled pink that he holds my site up as a quintessential example. (I'm hoping he's using it in the sense of the Latin word for five as I can name at least that many and even more that are better...) Of course, like Bernard of Chartres, I've only been able to see further because of giants like Matthias Pfefferle, David Shanske, dozens of other indieweb proponents, and the thousands upon thousands of folks in the WordPress community.

 

In my experience there are so few biologists who are aware of information theory (much less know it well) that the subset of neuroscientists aware of it is minuscule. As a result I can't image that there's a university that would come close to claiming leadership in the field.

I do keep a growing list of researchers working at the intersection of information theory and biology, and even that list is pretty slim though there are researchers like Terry Senjowski or Werner Loewenstein (now deceased) on it. http://boffosocko.com/itbio/itbio-researchers/

The NIPS conference might also reveal some researchers, though most are from the neurobiology side: https://nips.cc/

You might also find some interesting people and papers at: https://www.mendeley.com/community/information-theory-for-neuroscience/members/

Another area of overlap in these is in complexity theory where you're likely to find some working with a strong underpinning in information theory.

 

Congratulations and welcome to the club. There's lots of goodies here if you haven't seen them yet: http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/plugins/community/

 

I've updated my WithKnown install to v0.9.9 Derbyshire!

2 min read

Aside from one or two custom CSS tweaks, everything seems to be looking and working as expected! If readers or users see or experience any issues, please let me know.

I can't wait to try out all of the new core features and improvements that have arrived since 0.9.2! Including:

  • A simpler user registration experience
  • Fixed image preview rotation
  • Improved indieweb support (including for likes and reposts)
  • Improved migration support
  • Advanced access control internal API
  • Design and layout fixes
  • Better error pages
  • Support for PHP 7
  • Countless fixes and speed improvements in the background

You can get your own version of one of the best, most modern, and most forward-thinking Content Management Systems on the planet by contacting the fantastic team at https://withknown.com/. Or host your own version: https://withknown.com/opensource/ with lots of community developed plugins.

If you've already got Known and haven't upgraded, I've previously written up an outline about the upgrade process.

Coming up soon, I'll be upgrading my Known testing ground at http://known.boffosocko.com/ which, in some sense, is its own social media site, but also allows users to sign up for an account to test drive some of the core functionality in addition to syndicating their content to sites like Twitter and also backfeed their comments back from Twitter. For ease of use, I recommend setting up the bookmarklet after creating your account.

The 1.0 version of Known is anticipated some time in June 2017, but to be honest, in the almost three years I've been using it, it's been both fantastic and rock solid.

 

Some of the issue is that WordPress has a huge number of plugins which adds a lot of additional complexity (especially for Micropub clients) which isn't always going to be handled by every client.

As for webmentions, they're being bolted onto WordPress which doesn't have (or allow) a custom comment type, so they're jury-rigged in the best manner possible. There is still ongoing work, especially with the Semantic Linkbacks Plugin which does a lot of the heavy lifting here, if you've got thoughts/ideas, you should certainly weigh in on those Github issues as they are evolving.

I know there were a handful of quirks that have been changed in Known in the past months to fix some issues with microformats that were being parsed incorrectly, and thus caused other platforms like WordPress not to let them display as nicely when received. I think most have been merged and a new release of Known was pushed yesterday and should hopefully clear up some of these issues. I think the developers of the WordPress plugins and even the Known community are very responsive, so feel free to jump in with feedback, suggestions, or even pull requests on any of the pieces which are all on GitHub.

I'm sure there will be some remaining rough edges, but in general a lot of them have been smoothed over in the past year and most improvements now seem to be geared towards making the suite of tools more user friendly or to better extend the functionality.

 

Replied to a post on github.com :

I've read that it was something they tested out last year in select markets around Mother's Day. It's possible that it was brought back today again for Mother's Day on a limited basis.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/13/15635974/mothers-day-thankful-facebook-camera-flower-reaction-instagram

https://www.facebook.com/help/community/question/?id=10207656192377271

 

Happy 3rd Birthday @WithKnown! #indieweb #edtech

I didn't join apparently until almost exactly four months later on September 10, 2014, but it was a day that has definitively changed my life for the better. Thanks to all the folks in both the company and in the community who have made Known what it is today!

 

Perhaps I'm not quite reading your meaning properly, but I'm curious about the portion about your having turned off comments. I also notice your link requesting to "Comment on this at Medium". Both seemed odd to me as some of the benefit of having an indieweb site is having things set up to have better two way communication with others, while still owning the and having control and agency over the conversation.

This being said, I have, however, been considering turning off generic public (and anonymous) comments in favor of receiving comments only via webmentions. I think the fact that users who wish to comment on my content needing to post it on their own site first helps cut down on the spam and poorly thought out me-too commentary.

To some extent I think this was the tremendous value of Tumblr's not having a native commenting system. In their paradigm, to comment on something, one needed to put their commentary into their own personal stream first to be able to push the comment to the receiver's site as a secondary action. The social consequences of this are much stronger in terms of cutting back on a lot of junk, spam, and personal attacks because it becomes personally identifiable as representing themselves first and foremost (especially on their own site). Some of the problems Twitter and others have stem from users not really owning their content or their identities on those platforms which makes it much easier to become a nameless/faceless bully.

In some sense I think of it by analogy as a "Christmas tree effect". One purchases a wonderful Christmas tree and only puts up the useful and pretty decorations on it because it's what they and others who visit will see in broad view--often even publicly through their window from the street outside their home. Very few will go out of their way to buy a shabby looking tree and festoon it with dreadful ornaments as it's something ugly that not only they see constantly within their own home, but which will publicly brand them as such to friends, family, and even outsiders within their community.

Separately, thanks for the example your site provides. There are many subtleties you've got within your theme that I've been slowly working my way toward as well. I appreciate the way you've laid out and delineated the content. I also love the idea of a microcast which is something I've been contemplating for ages, but have never gotten around to actually doing. Your version and conceptualization are inspiring me to take another hard look at actually doing something.

 

Losing My Patience with Google+ #indieweb

And this is where I start to get really mad. Like many others here, I have invested a lot of personal time and energy building a following here. Like many of you, I have poured heart and soul into filling this place not just with great content, but also with a sense of community. I could have made those investments in Twitter or Facebook or reddit, but like many of you, I made them here. And now I'm starting to wonder how smart of a decision that was.

We've heard these cries before all too many times, and sadly we're likely to continue to hear them into the future until and unless people begin taking the web into their own hands.

 

I'm in the same boat with you Jeremy. Each silo certainly has it's own set of functions, personality, and even audience. For me, Facebook and Instagram are more close friends and family, LinkedIn work-related, Twitter and Google+ generic town squares for interacting with people I might not otherwise meet in real life, and Foursquare/Swarm/Nextdoor are for interacting (albeit, not much) with neighbors and people in my geographic vicinity.

Twitter is almost too short in some sense while platforms like Mastodon, pnut, and 10C give more length and often feel more like chat rooms (or IRC or old multi-person instant messenger) interspersed with Twitter-like status updates. There's also a difference in who you're communicating with and which of your audiences they fall into (friends, family, real life acquaintances, internet friends, people with similar interests, etc.). Some of it comes down to interface, space given, and the organic nature of how the people in those communities choose to use them. Though Mastodon is very similar to Twitter, it's the more conversational direction that the users and community who are actively using it push it into that will determine some of its fate--certainly an interesting topic of study for cultural anthropologists.

Another thing I find interesting is their relative sizes. The smaller they seem to be (or perhaps closer to the Dunbar number of users they have) the more conversational and less "post-y" they feel. While I might syndicate some articles or status updates to some of these more chat-like services, I don't feel as much like syndicating all of my chat to them--at least until I could make my personal UI easier to use to do that, and that portends to be quite a way off.

As I bring up Dunbar's research, I also realize there are only so many slivers of the web that I can mentally keep up with at any given time. The closer I come to posting on my own site and interacting that way, the lower my cognitive load seems to become. I no longer spend time in or visit some of the major silos 3-10 times a day anymore since those interactions come back to me in a more natural way.